Image: Tesla

Tesla recently released a software update that allows drivers to play video games on its center-mounted dashboard screens even when the vehicle is moving, but people who actually care about safety are expectedly worried and unimpressed.

They include the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which revealed on Wednesday that it had opened up a dialog with Tesla to figure out why such a dangerous feature was made available by the popular electric car manufacturer. Tesla owners can reportedly play games such as Sky Force Reloaded and Solitaire even when their eyes should be on the road.

“We are aware of driver concerns and are discussing the feature with the manufacturer,” the NHTSA said in a statement. “The Vehicle Safety Act prohibits manufacturers from selling vehicles with design defects posing unreasonable risks to safety.”

The investigation was seemingly prompted by an article published by The New York Times on Tuesday that pointed out Tesla owners could now play video games in moving cars. Gaming while driving seems to be a key marketing point for Tesla, whose promotional materials for the Model S includes a dashboard with hit titles such as The Witcher 3 and Cuphead.

“It should go without saying that enabling drivers to play or be distracted by video games while operating a multi-ton vehicle at highway speeds is exceedingly dangerous,” said Jason Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety.

“NHTSA should move quickly from suggesting guidelines to enforcing the law against unreasonable risks to safety and Tesla should stop playing with the lives of their owners and anyone else sharing the road with these vehicles,” Levine added.

Source: Bloomberg

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32 Comments

  1. Hmm…

    On one hand – yeah it’s pretty stupid to allow that.

    On the other – why not? It isn’t Teslas job to babysit the driver, a passenger could be using it just as likely, and an inclined driver could easily whip out their phone and do the same thing with no interlock preventing it.

  2. I’m losing track of all the things they’re being investigated for at this point.

    Let’s see, and anyone please feel free to add to the list:
    1. Various lawsuits or pending cases regarding accidents that’ve already happened with the autopilot feature. This by itself could have a dozen or so different sub listings.
    2. Fires that have happened with their power wall batteries for their solar panels
    3. Defective solar panels

    If it isn’t already happening I could see something happening over dissatisfaction with Starlink in light of that story we had a few weeks back: [URL]https://www.thefpsreview.com/2021/11/06/starlink-customers-canceling-preorders-due-to-lack-of-communication-order-delays/[/URL]

  3. In all fairness – SpaceX and Tesla are independent companies (although they do have Musk in common).

    That said – Tesla is in even worse shape than you let on – going back further than the SolarCity acquisition that has some issues surrounding it. They seem to always be just one step ahead of disaster, although as we used to say in the Navy – it’s better to be lucky than to be good.

  4. Ah Tesla, used to follow it and Musk quite a bit for a while. Not so much anymore. I do have intentions of buying a cybertruck if it ever gets made. I have my doubts it ever will… And Im quite unsure of the quality. Also have some deep doubt about real self driving ever happening, let alone on camera only as musk insists it will happen ( this makes no sense to me , why deny yourself potential better than eyesight sensor data, proper use is the issue, not weirdly insisting in one type of sensor)

  5. [QUOTE=”Uvilla, post: 44980, member: 397″]
    I do have intentions of buying a cybertruck if it ever gets made.
    [/QUOTE]
    Coming from a Chevy/Dodge family I might get disowned for this but at this point, you might be better off waiting for Ford to get an F-150 version to market first. Lord, I feel sullied and unnatural just typing that. 😉

  6. [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 44930, member: 96″]
    Hmm…

    On one hand – yeah it’s pretty stupid to allow that.

    On the other – why not? It isn’t Teslas job to babysit the driver, a passenger could be using it just as likely, and an inclined driver could easily whip out their phone and do the same thing with no interlock preventing it.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, it seems like a bad idea to allow it, but is it actually law that they have to prevent driver distraction?

    I used to want a Tesla. I had a $10k reservation in for the original Model S in anticipation for its release, but in the end I canceled it because I wanted to wait for AWD versions.

    Then I had a reservation in for the Model 3, and canceled that too as soon as I saw the minimalistic interior. I prefer driver centric traditional dashboard models. The single center screen design was a non-starter for me.

    I still thought that maybe a Model S would be in the cards some day, but then they doubled down on the stupid, and brought the overly minimalistic interior design over to the Model S as well, and now they are not even on my list of vehicles I have any interest in.

    I just want a car that is in every way like cars I have always owned, except with a 200+ mile AWD electric drivetrain.

    1.) I don’t need or want self driving features. I prefer to drive myself.

    2.) I don’t need or want face melting acceleration modes. 0-60 in ~6s is just fine. I’m not a racer boy.

    3.) I don’t want any connected features either for driving or for entertainment.

    4.) I absolutely require a traditional ergonomically laid out driver-centric cockpit, with a traditional instrumentation cluster, spedometer, etc.

    Until I can get something that meets ALL of the above requirements, I’ll just keep driving older cars.

    I really wanted to be an early adopter of electric cars, but I am unwilling to put up with the stupid these companies exude.

  7. [QUOTE=”Peter_Brosdahl, post: 44982, member: 87″]
    Coming from a Chevy/Dodge family I might get disowned for this but at this point, you might be better off waiting for Ford to get an F-150 version to market first. Lord, I feel sullied and unnatural just typing that. 😉
    [/QUOTE]

    I didn’t realize people got so heated about that.

    To me Ford & Chevy are pretty much the same generic boring nonsense :p

  8. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45047, member: 203″]
    I didn’t realize people got so heated about that.

    To me Ford & Chevy are pretty much the same generic boring nonsense :p
    [/QUOTE]
    It runs deep in some families. I was speaking facetiously by I would get some looks if I ever pulled up in a Ford.

  9. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45047, member: 203″]
    I didn’t realize people got so heated about that.
    [/QUOTE]
    It’s mostly a truck thing I think – not entirely, but seems to be much more prevalent there.

  10. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]
    Yeah, it seems like a bad idea to allow it, but is it actually law that they have to prevent driver distraction?

    I used to want a Tesla. I had a $10k reservation in for the original Model S in anticipation for its release, but in the end I canceled it because I wanted to wait for AWD versions.

    Then I had a reservation in for the Model 3, and canceled that too as soon as I saw the minimalistic interior. I prefer driver centric traditional dashboard models. The single center screen design was a non-starter for me.

    I still thought that maybe a Model S would be in the cards some day, but then they doubled down on the stupid, and brought the overly minimalistic interior design over to the Model S as well, and now they are not even on my list of vehicles I have any interest in.

    I just want a car that is in every way like cars I have always owned, except with a 200+ mile AWD electric drivetrain.

    1.) I don’t need or want self driving features. I prefer to drive myself.

    2.) I don’t need or want face melting acceleration modes. 0-60 in ~6s is just fine. I’m not a racer boy.

    3.) I don’t want any connected features either for driving or for entertainment.

    4.) I absolutely require a traditional ergonomically laid out driver-centric cockpit, with a traditional instrumentation cluster, spedometer, etc.

    Until I can get something that meets ALL of the above requirements, I’ll just keep driving older cars.

    I really wanted to be an early adopter of electric cars, but I am unwilling to put up with the stupid these companies exude.
    [/QUOTE]
    Idk the Volvo xc 40 recharge looks sweet to me. Minus the possible cybertruck none of the Tesla look that hot to me anymore. I used to be way more positive, but I have soured a lot… And even more with the FSD that has been ready 5 years ago supposedly…yet it has only gone up in price.
    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.caranddriver.com/volvo/xc40-recharge[/URL]

  11. [QUOTE=”Uvilla, post: 45079, member: 397″]
    Idk the Volvo xc 40 recharge looks sweet to me. Minus the possible cybertruck none of the Tesla look that hot to me anymore. I used to be way more positive, but I have soured a lot… And even more with the FSD that has been ready 5 years ago supposedly…yet it has only gone up in price.
    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.caranddriver.com/volvo/xc40-recharge[/URL]
    [/QUOTE]
    We are due for a new car in a year or two – I’ve been keeping my eye open for Plug-in hybrids. We live in the mountains – most of my wife’s trips are under 30 miles — half of which are <2 miles to the bus stop and back for the kid. But I'm not ready to give up on gas stations just yet, and 4W/AWD is a must - especially in the mountains. And if we do need to head down into the valley for something - those trips are easily 150+ miles round trip, down and back up again.

    The XC60 and XC90 are on my radar, the 40 doesn't look bad but is EV-only, so off my list for the moment. Polestar looks like it could be fun. But I haven't done a ton of research into it, as we are still a ways out from getting serious about it. My only ding about Volvo is the boring looks - but ... it's a Volvo, they were never really lookers.

    Guy that lives 2 doors down has Model S. I admit it's a looker. I had heard they do well in the snow, but he's gotten his stuck on the drive every winter, in ways I've never seen a car get stuck before. I think most of that may be his driving though, to be fair...

    I am also very much against the "Car-as-a-service" subscription model. I have always bought new, then use it for 10+ years. I'm only on my third personal vehicle, and most of the appeal is having it paid for and "mine". If it moves to needing to subscribe to something, then in my mind at least, it isn't that far from just leasing. I'm very leery about this recent shift where most of the car "advancement" has just been software - updated head unit touch screen graphics / etc... I hate touchscreens in a car. I don't mind and of this being offered, it's just none of that is what I prefer.

  12. [QUOTE=”Uvilla, post: 45079, member: 397″]
    Idk the Volvo xc 40 recharge looks sweet to me. Minus the possible cybertruck none of the Tesla look that hot to me anymore. I used to be way more positive, but I have soured a lot… And even more with the FSD that has been ready 5 years ago supposedly…yet it has only gone up in price.
    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.caranddriver.com/volvo/xc40-recharge[/URL]
    [/QUOTE]

    I do enjoy Volvo’s (I have two of them already).

    the C40 recharge doesn’t look like a bad car, but the price seems a little bit high for what it is.

    That said, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever buy any SUV, crossover or truck, regardless of manufacturer or drivetrain type.

    I am entirely and universally opposed to vehicles of elevated ride height no matter what.

    There are only two types of vehicles I’ll buy. Full size sedans or full size wagons.

  13. I really don’t understand how people can do ANYTHING else when they are driving. I don’t even talk on the phone. One time I violated my rule and tried to change a song on my MP3 player at the time (Creative Zen), and I gently rear-ended a lady (no damage to either car). Another time a person rear-ended me cuz she was messing around on her phone. So f*ck all that nonsense. When I am driving, I am 100% focused on the act of driving. Controlling a heavy, expensive vehicle at any road-legal speed is not a task to be taken lightly.

    My daily driver (4th-gen Mustang) is a car I’ve been driving for over 20 years, and I very much appreciate the simplicity of it. I can’t stand drive-by-wire or touch-screens, and my old-@ss car doesn’t have a single trace of any of that sh1t. Not a fan of EVs either but I’ve been slowly warming up to them.

    [QUOTE=”Peter_Brosdahl, post: 44982, member: 87″]
    Lord, I feel sullied and unnatural just typing that. 😉
    [/QUOTE]
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I feel that!

    [QUOTE=”Peter_Brosdahl, post: 45056, member: 87″]
    It runs deep in some families.
    [/QUOTE]
    I’m mostly a Chevy guy (2 of the first 3 cars I ever loved in life were Chevys – the Camaro and the Corvette), with strong ties to Toyota (my first car was a 3rd-gen Supra, and I always wanted a Celica GT-Four ST205 and a 4th-gen Supra), and I even used to like Nissan (the Silvias and the GT-Rs mainly). My focus is mainly American muscle (classic and modern) and rally cars, with a healthy helping of JDM. My dad, before he was drafted and then later became an Army doctor, used to work for Ford. He LOOOOOVES Ford. He has a ton of Ford vehicles at his house, and most of them don’t work (or are in various states of disrepair). Spending nearly 4 decades with Ford vehicles has instilled me in a general dislike of Ford. Most of the time the sh1t they make are pieces of trash. I’ve liked some of their cars, Mustangs have a special place in my family’s history for example, but if you want reliable dependable vehicles, stay the f*ck away from Ford. That being said, I would REALLY love a GT350 with the Coyote VooDoo. Not the most reliable engine, but a very VERY special one. And I don’t even like current-gen Mustangs.

    Anyways yeah, when you grow up in car families, that sh1t runs real f*cking deep. At least my dad likes cars in general, he wouldn’t get pissed off if I showed up in a Chevy or a Toyota. He just can’t seem to buy anything except Fords though. Well that’s not exactly true, he used to really like Volvo.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]
    1.) I don’t need or want self driving features. I prefer to drive myself.

    3.) I don’t want any connected features either for driving or for entertainment.

    4.) I absolutely require a traditional ergonomically laid out driver-centric cockpit, with a traditional instrumentation cluster, spedometer, etc.
    [/QUOTE]
    110% with you on all of this. I also do not like the current trend of replacing gauge cluster with screens.

    [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 45081, member: 96″]
    I am also very much against the “Car-as-a-service” subscription model. I have always bought new, then use it for 10+ years. I’m only on my third personal vehicle, and most of the appeal is having it paid for and “mine”. If it moves to needing to subscribe to something, then in my mind at least, it isn’t that far from just leasing. I’m very leery about this recent shift where most of the car “advancement” has just been software – updated head unit touch screen graphics / etc… I hate touchscreens in a car.
    [/QUOTE]
    Very much with you on all of this. When you buy a car, that should be it, you shouldn’t have to pay a subscription fee to access some of that vehicle’s features. One of my biggest problems with touch-screens is that they require you to see where you are pressing, which means you have to take your eyes off the road. When you’ve been driving a car with physical controls for a long time, you’ve memorized everything, and you can fiddle with all the climate and radio stuff just by feel, without ever having to take your eyes off the road.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45085, member: 203″]
    That said, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever buy any SUV, crossover or truck, regardless of manufacturer or drivetrain type.

    I am entirely and universally opposed to vehicles of elevated ride height no matter what.
    [/QUOTE]
    Can’t stand SUVs or crossovers. I didn’t use to care for trucks, but I’ve been warming up to them over the years. Some trucks I did always kinda like, such as the Lightning and Raptors (pre-EcoBoost), and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t think the Dodge Ram TRX is f*cking awesome. In the end though, trucks are definitely NOT for me (which is weird to say cuz I come from Texas). Too big, too wide, too heavy, and the center of gravity is way the f*ck too high. I really don’t like vehicles with high ride heights. My sister is the opposite. She can’t really stand cars, or vehicles low to the ground. She only likes SUVs and especially trucks.

    This thread reminds me of my previous rant against EVs, drive-by-wire, touch-screens, distracted drivers, autonomous driving, and once again agreeing with Zarathustra on some things with cars (as is the case with operating systems and smartphones): [URL]https://forums.thefpsreview.com/threads/tesla-aiming-to-release-a-25-000-electric-car-in-2023-might-not-come-with-a-steering-wheel.6648/post-40817[/URL]

  14. This is ridiculous. Your car also allows you to play the violin while driving, but it’s not the car’s fault is it? We should be in full control, not the car telling us what we are allowed to do and when. I was already annoyed by cars refusing to start unless you had your foot on the brake pedal 15 years ago.

    Now there are actual vans that refuse to move if your seatbelt is not on. I mean that would be fucking annoying when you are just moving around in a depot between loading ramps or want to back into a garage.

  15. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]
    I just want a car that is in every way like cars I have always owned, except with a 200+ mile AWD electric drivetrain.
    [/QUOTE]
    Why do you need it to be AWD? It seems to be a similar fad to SUVs. 99.999 % never actually needs it.
    I live in a hilly area and it often snows in the winter, but I never thought, hell yeah, let’s buy an AWD car for the 2 days of the year when the snowplow didn’t pass our street before I drove on it.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]
    1.) I don’t need or want self driving features. I prefer to drive myself.
    [/QUOTE]
    Well, you say that, but I wish I had self driving features when I’m in stop and go traffic. Which was quite often recently since my dear government was taking 4 years to do routine maintenance to the highway I usually take to work. Yeah, since 2017 there wasn’t a single day until last week where all traffic lanes were actually open on the road.

    So far the most self driving I experienced was radar assisted cruise control and I loved that too. Not having to constantly manually adjust my speed because the idiot in front just can’t decide on a speed.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]
    2.) I don’t need or want face melting acceleration modes. 0-60 in ~6s is just fine. I’m not a racer boy.
    [/QUOTE]
    Ironic, since in the early 2000s or 90s we considered 6s sports car acceleration. I think for any traffic situation 10s is more than adequate. Don’t get me wrong, I like fast cars, and I think anything bellow 9s is an indulgence and absolutely unnecessary.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]
    3.) I don’t want any connected features either for driving or for entertainment.
    [/QUOTE]
    I actually love connected features, I wish my dashcam was connected so I didn’t have to pull the SD card and manually get stuff of it. Also it’d be great if I didn’t have to put my phone up with a fugly holder on the dash, but the car just mirrored it on my central screen. And while at it it could utilize my spotify account or just stored music on the phone to play through the speakers.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]
    4.) I absolutely require a traditional ergonomically laid out driver-centric cockpit, with a traditional instrumentation cluster, spedometer, etc.
    [/QUOTE]
    I’m with you on that. I hate these esp. toyota and tesla dashboards where there is nothing behind the steering wheel.
    Conceptually I don’t mind digital dashes, but I just see them as an uneccessary point of failure, so an analog speedo and rev counter is my choice.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45046, member: 203″]

    Until I can get something that meets ALL of the above requirements, I’ll just keep driving older cars.

    I really wanted to be an early adopter of electric cars, but I am unwilling to put up with the stupid these companies exude.
    [/QUOTE]
    From the looks of things the stupid will be the norm going forward even in non EVs.
    I’m not really bothered, because livingi n eastern europe from a salary means I’ll never be able to afford a new car anyway.

  16. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    Why do you need it to be AWD? It seems to be a similar fad to SUVs. 99.999 % never actually needs it.
    [/QUOTE]
    You are correct, 99% of the time you will never need it.

    But that one time you do – you’ll be really glad you had it. And as far as AWD goes (as opposed to 4WD), there are probably many times it’s kicking in automatically that you don’t even realize.

    For snow – nothing beats good snow tires if your in a n area that gets a lot of it, but 4WD/AWD is awfully nice to have in a pinch, and is a lot easier to engage than swapping out tires.

  17. [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 45113, member: 96″]
    You are correct, 99% of the time you will never need it.

    But that one time you do – you’ll be really glad you had it. And as far as AWD goes (as opposed to 4WD), there are probably many times it’s kicking in automatically that you don’t even realize.

    For snow – nothing beats good snow tires if your in a n area that gets a lot of it, but 4WD/AWD is awfully nice to have in a pinch, and is a lot easier to engage than swapping out tires.
    [/QUOTE]
    I’ve driven many different 4WD suvs and offroad cars. (occupational hazard) And I’ve seen a lot of people expecting auto mode on a 4WD car to be like AWD. But it’s really not.

    If you have a good AWD car like an Audi yes it makes it much easier, but that’s an even bigger waste of money imo.

    I’d rather rely on my skill in the few cases where I need to drive in snow, than buy a much more expensive, complicated, and heavy vehicle just in case.

  18. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45115, member: 1298″]
    I’d rather rely on my skill in the few cases where I need to drive in snow, than buy a much more expensive, complicated, and heavy vehicle just in case.
    [/QUOTE]
    It’s your car and your money – feel free.

    For me – an airbag is a waste of money as well. Until that day you actually use it. If I can afford AWD/4WD, and it makes things easier one that one day a year I go out in the snow, I’m going to get it.

  19. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    Why do you need it to be AWD? It seems to be a similar fad to SUVs. 99.999 % never actually needs it.
    I live in a hilly area and it often snows in the winter, but I never thought, hell yeah, let’s buy an AWD car for the 2 days of the year when the snowplow didn’t pass our street before I drove on it.
    [/QUOTE]

    I have come to really like AWD for winter driving. I would be OK with FWD, but seeing that I live in a part of the world where I have no choice but to occasionally drive in the snow, I would never opt for RWD in a daily driver.

    Here we usually get more than 2 days of snow a year, but not much more. I don’t like to ever be dependent on weather to get anywhere I want to go. I will buy the equipment to get me where I want to go when I want to go there no matter what is going on outside. I have zero tolerance for ever letting conditions stop me from doing anything I need or want to do. I even put dedicated winter tires on my car, an anomaly around here.

    [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    Well, you say that, but I wish I had self driving features when I’m in stop and go traffic. Which was quite often recently since my dear government was taking 4 years to do routine maintenance to the highway I usually take to work. Yeah, since 2017 there wasn’t a single day until last week where all traffic lanes were actually open on the road.
    [/QUOTE]

    That’s fair. But really, driving in traffic doesn’t bother me much. Don’t get me wrong. I hate the waste of time, but if I’m going to be stuck there anyway, I think I’d rather be driving.

    [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    So far the most self driving I experienced was radar assisted cruise control and I loved that too. Not having to constantly manually adjust my speed because the idiot in front just can’t decide on a speed.
    [/QUOTE]

    My S90 has Radar assisted cruise control and Volvo’s “Pilot Assist” system. I would never have paid for it, but you don’t get much choice when you buy certified pre-owned. Does the car you want exist and the amount of miles you want? You get it with whatever options it has.

    I almost never use the system. It’s more of a pain in the ass than it is worth. It gets confused by widening lanes, and certain turns, especially when the lines on the road are worn. I find that it is more work to step in and control it periodically when it loses a fix on things than it is to just drive it myself.

    The radar assisted cruise control is convenient, but it too is annoying. The damn thing refuses to coast down to speed. You set the distance to the car ahead of you, and as soon as it get slower than you set it, the thing starts riding the brakes instead of consuming some space and coasting down to speed like a human driver would. I have never gone through brakes this fast in my life. So, most of the time I just don’t use that either.

    [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    Ironic, since in the early 2000s or 90s we considered 6s sports car acceleration. I think for any traffic situation 10s is more than adequate. Don’t get me wrong, I like fast cars, and I think anything bellow 9s is an indulgence and absolutely unnecessary.
    [/QUOTE]

    I’d mostly agree, but there are a lot of really bad old highways around here with REALLY short onramps. And unlike most places in Europe where the car on the onramp has the right of way, and the cars in the rightmost lane must let you in, here in the U.S. it is the other way around. Those on the on ramp must yield for traffic on the highway.

    It also doesn’t help that everyone tailgates here. Literally near 0% of the population leaves a safe following distance to the next car on the highway.

    If you don’t have the ability to get up to speed, and get up to speed very fast, it could be outright dangerous, or you could wind up spending a very long time trying to merge on to a highway, with drivers behind you getting very frustrated.

    My old 168hp NA base model Volvo v70 Wagon is the slowest car I’ve ever owned in that regard, at about 9 seconds. I usually don’t drive it on the highway though. I do that in the S90.

    [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    I actually love connected features, I wish my dashcam was connected so I didn’t have to pull the SD card and manually get stuff of it. Also it’d be great if I didn’t have to put my phone up with a fugly holder on the dash, but the car just mirrored it on my central screen. And while at it it could utilize my spotify account or just stored music on the phone to play through the speakers.
    [/QUOTE]

    I don’t trust them. At all. I’m the “Engineer” from that meme about connected devices:

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”1639515927681.png”]1366[/ATTACH]

    I don’t use any so called “smart” devices, ever. Whenever I get a new phone or computer, I go through it and disable every single feature that has anything at all to do with syncing or cloud capability, and set all security features to their least permissive, regardless of what features I lose. I also always completely disable any “assistant” features of any device I own.

    I find it particularly bothersome that my car has a GPS and a second non-removable “always on” simcard that sends god knows what back to the manufacturer. I almost tried to return the car when I found out.

    I want absolutely none of that in my vehicles, or anywhere else in my life either for that matter.

    I am a huge tech enthusiast, but I have absolutely zero tolerance for things that dial home without my explicit permission. I expect every device to never use the network unless I explicitly tell it to, and I am unwilling to ever compromise on this.

    If that means I have to stay in the 90’s, I am perfectly happy with that. I was happy in the 90’s, and if I am honest, there is absolutely nothing new tech wise since then I really feel I need. I run my own servers and I am happy with them.

    Heck, I’ve even had a policy of “no new accounts” for the last 5-10 years. If something (software or hardware) requires me to tie it to the internet, and create a username and password, I simply refuse. I bought Far Cry 3 on steam a few years back, and it force installed Origin and wanted me to create an Origin account. I said absolutely no way and requested a Steam refund. I still run Windows in a local account only, and do not have and do not want a Microsoft account. If they ever force me to create one, that will be the day I wipe my Windows partition off of my drive.

    I want to be connected, but I want to be in manual control of everything that connects at all times with nothing ever going on behind my back.

    [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    I’m with you on that. I hate these esp. toyota and tesla dashboards where there is nothing behind the steering wheel.
    Conceptually I don’t mind digital dashes, but I just see them as an uneccessary point of failure, so an analog speedo and rev counter is my choice.
    [/QUOTE]

    My S90 has a screen based instrument cluster behind the steering wheel. I thought I would hate it, but it hasn’t wound up bothering me much. At this point I am mostly indifferent. (If it ever broke and I had to pay a ton of money to replace it, that would instantly be a different story though)

    What I am completely opposed to is that minimalist nonsense where there is no instrument cluster at all, just that supid ipad looking thing in the center. Do not want. You could create the god of all cars, but if it is designed like that, I won’t buy it. I wont even accept it for free.

    Another thing I really prefer about older cars is having phyical buttons for everything I can reach out and touch without taking my eyes off the road. Putting a touch screen in a car was the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

    [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45112, member: 1298″]
    From the looks of things the stupid will be the norm going forward even in non EVs.
    I’m not really bothered, because livingi n eastern europe from a salary means I’ll never be able to afford a new car anyway.
    [/QUOTE]

    Once my newer Volvo starts getting up there in the miles, I may just sell it before shit starts getting expensive to replace, and just keep using my 2000 Volvo V70, because it appears you are right, new vehicles (and devices) all just keep getting dumber and dumber and I want no part of it at all.

    If we could have a complete ban on any and all data collection, with severe financiual consequences for the violators that are actually enforced (not like that weaksauce GDPR in Europe) I would maybe change my mind about all of this, but I am not holding my breath. There are too many of these god awful silicon valley shitholes whose entire business model depends on it, and they won’t let it go without a political fight to the death.

    So it seems we are stuck with this big brother nonsense.

  20. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    …seeing that I live in a part of the world where I have no choice but to occasionally drive in the snow, I would never opt for RWD in a daily driver.
    [/QUOTE]
    I spent over two decades driving a RWD car with no ABS and no traction or stability control in the rain and snow. I’ve gotten really good at it, but it’s still a real pain in the ass. I love AWD mainly for the improved traction in all conditions, the performance, and cuz I was big into rally racing, but honestly it is very, very good for ALL everyday driving conditions. And in the snow, it is f*cking awesome. My parents have a Taurus SHO with AWD, so it’s not even an awesome AWD system like you find in Audis, GT-Rs, Lancer Evos, and WRX STis, and it’s still fantastic. I love AWD so much. Definitely the best choice for an everyday driver.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    I bought Far Cry 3 on steam a few years back, and it force installed Origin and wanted me to create an Origin account. I said absolutely no way and requested a Steam refund.
    [/QUOTE]
    I think you mean Ubisoft uPlay (which I think is now called Ubisoft Connect), but I know what you mean. It’s the same case with uPlay and Origin, and a few other launchers. If you buy a game on Steam, it should only use Steam, but that’s not how they roll. I was perfectly willing to pay for FC3 but they wanted to be @ssholes, so the only way I got to play the game was to use a community demo.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    Another thing I really prefer about older cars is having phyical buttons for everything I can reach out and touch without taking my eyes off the road. Putting a touch screen in a car was the dumbest thing I ever heard of.
    [/QUOTE]
    Exactly like I ranted about above, and in the older post I linked to. You’re preaching to the choir here. It really is one of the absolute dumbest f*cking things I have ever heard of.

  21. [QUOTE=”DrezKill, post: 45120, member: 230″]
    I think you mean Ubisoft uPlay (which I think is now called Ubisoft Connect), but I know what you mean. It’s the same case with uPlay and Origin, and a few other launchers. If you buy a game on Steam, it should only use Steam, but that’s not how they roll. I was perfectly willing to pay for FC3 but they wanted to be @ssholes,
    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, you are right. Sorry. I get them confused. Origin, Uplay, Ubisoft Play, etc. I can’t keep track of which is which. They are all unwanted.

    [QUOTE=”DrezKill, post: 45120, member: 230″]
    so the only way I got to play the game was to use a community demo.
    [/QUOTE]

    I like that term “community demo”. :p

    I’m going to start using that!

    I have done the same. At first I was just pissed, and decided I was going to abandon the Far Cry series as a result, but I am a sucker for open world single player games. Over time I rationalized that why should I miss out because they are the ones that suck? and I played me some community demos as well.

    Then I did the same thing with a couple of titles that launched as Epic Store exclusives. (Metro Exodus and The Outer Worlds) I bought them as soon as they launched on Steam though to make a point, that it was the principle of not being coerced to use storefronts, install clients and create accounts that I don’t want, not about the free game.

    At this point I already have the right to redeem a free copy of Far Cry 6 that came with a GPU that I bought, but guess what? It requires a ubisoft client and account as well, so I am just putting that one off until the “Community Demo” becomes available as well.

    (Speaking of which, this one sure is taking a long time. I had become used to Denuvo being broken within days of launch. I guess Ubisoft got their money’s worth this time around, huh? No worries. I am a patient person. I’ll get around to it whenever the community demo is out. I have quite the backlog of things I’ve bought on sale over the years…)

  22. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    I have come to really like AWD for winter driving. I would be OK with FWD, but seeing that I live in a part of the world where I have no choice but to occasionally drive in the snow, I would never opt for RWD in a daily driver.
    [/QUOTE]

    If my choice was only RWD vs AWD I’d go for AWD too, reluctantly.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]

    Here we usually get more than 2 days of snow a year, but not much more. I don’t like to ever be dependent on weather to get anywhere I want to go. I will buy the equipment to get me where I want to go when I want to go there no matter what is going on outside. I have zero tolerance for ever letting conditions stop me from doing anything I need or want to do. I even put dedicated winter tires on my car, an anomaly around here.
    [/QUOTE]

    I have dedicated winter tyres too, which I didn’t even put on last winter, or this one either yet. Since I’m driving so little with quarantine and work from home.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]

    That’s fair. But really, driving in traffic doesn’t bother me much. Don’t get me wrong. I hate the waste of time, but if I’m going to be stuck there anyway, I think I’d rather be driving.
    [/QUOTE]
    With current restrictions on self driving I agree. I’d want either completely hands off, or none at all. If I still have to look at the road and hold the wheel, then it’s pointless.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    The radar assisted cruise control is convenient, but it too is annoying. The **** thing refuses to coast down to speed. You set the distance to the car ahead of you, and as soon as it get slower than you set it, the thing starts riding the brakes instead of consuming some space and coasting down to speed like a human driver would. I have never gone through brakes this fast in my life. So, most of the time I just don’t use that either.
    [/QUOTE]
    Strange that volvo would have such a bad system. The one I’ve used was a Toyota and it coasted just fine. It was possibly more efficient than I could’ve been in full control, since it detected speed differences much faster than I could. And slightly feathering the accelerator would prevent it from slamming on the brakes, when someone suddenly merged in front of me. And this would not disable the system. It was very convenient after I learned how to work with the system instead of against it.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    I’d mostly agree, but there are a lot of really bad old highways around here with REALLY short onramps. And unlike most places in Europe where the car on the onramp has the right of way, and the cars in the rightmost lane must let you in, here in the U.S. it is the other way around. Those on the on ramp must yield for traffic on the highway.
    [/QUOTE]
    The cars on the onramp does not have the right of way in Europe, IDK where you got that information. It’s another thing that there are some polite drivers in europe who will let you merge. But if nobody is willing to give you room it doesn’t matter how fast your car is. I have a car that is 30 years old and had 75hp when new. (probably about 60 now with the worn out engine) And I don’t have a problem merging when I drive that.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    It also doesn’t help that everyone tailgates here. Literally near 0% of the population leaves a safe following distance to the next car on the highway.
    [/QUOTE]
    That’s exactly the same here, and worse you can’t even leave a safe following distance in front of you because there’ll always be some wiseguy who then overtakes you on the right to go into the safety gap you leave in front of you.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]

    If you don’t have the ability to get up to speed, and get up to speed very fast, it could be outright dangerous, or you could wind up spending a very long time trying to merge on to a highway, with drivers behind you getting very frustrated.
    [/QUOTE]
    I think it is a huge stretch to claim that you can’t get up to speed unless your car can do 0-60 in 6s. You already get to the ramp with some speed it’s not as if you are starting from a standstill.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]

    My old 168hp NA base model Volvo v70 Wagon is the slowest car I’ve ever owned in that regard, at about 9 seconds. I usually don’t drive it on the highway though. I do that in the S90.
    [/QUOTE]
    As an european It is laughable to me that Americans would consider that a slow car. The fastest car I’ve ever owned had 136hp, and it was total overkill for commuting, I had to temper my inner boyracer if I didn’t want to get into trouble.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    I don’t trust them. At all. I’m the “Engineer” from that meme about connected devices:

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”1639515927681.png”]1366[/ATTACH]

    I don’t use any so called “smart” devices, ever. Whenever I get a new phone or computer, I go through it and disable every single feature that has anything at all to do with syncing or cloud capability, and set all security features to their least permissive, regardless of what features I lose. I also always completely disable any “assistant” features of any device I own.
    [/QUOTE]
    I don’t trust the cloud either. I just want my devices to connect to each other without a 3rd party intermediary. It’s such a huge convenience. I’ve set up my own FTP server, and my phone syncs pictures to that. My digital camera uses wifi to connect to my computer so I Don’t have to use a card reader to copy videos and photos from it. I find this a huge advantage, and makes me much happier to snap photos. Before I had this I’d often forget about the photos I’ve taken, because I just couldn’t be bothered to go through having to connect through a cable, or worse having to take out the memory card.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]

    I find it particularly bothersome that my car has a GPS and a second non-removable “always on” simcard that sends god knows what back to the manufacturer. I almost tried to return the car when I found out.
    [/QUOTE]
    My newest car is from 2003, what GPS? 😀

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]

    I want absolutely none of that in my vehicles, or anywhere else in my life either for that matter.

    I am a huge tech enthusiast, but I have absolutely zero tolerance for things that dial home without my explicit permission. I expect every device to never use the network unless I explicitly tell it to, and I am unwilling to ever compromise on this.
    [/QUOTE]
    I agree, my connected devices only connect when I tell them too, I wouldn’t have it any other way. In fact I was outraged when my phone simply told me that it made a copy of my phone’s contents on the cloud. WHO gave you permission to do that? I immediately disabled the feature and deleted everything. This crap should be strictly opt in. And that goes for a car’s phone home feature too.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    If that means I have to stay in the 90’s, I am perfectly happy with that. I was happy in the 90’s, and if I am honest, there is absolutely nothing new tech wise since then I really feel I need. I run my own servers and I am happy with them.
    [/QUOTE]
    You don’t have to be stuck in the 90s to avoid the cloud.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    Heck, I’ve even had a policy of “no new accounts” for the last 5-10 years. If something (software or hardware) requires me to tie it to the internet, and create a username and password, I simply refuse. I bought Far Cry 3 on steam a few years back, and it force installed Origin and wanted me to create an Origin account. I said absolutely no way and requested a Steam refund. I still run Windows in a local account only, and do not have and do not want a Microsoft account. If they ever force me to create one, that will be the day I wipe my Windows partition off of my drive.
    [/QUOTE]
    I’m with you on that. If they ever want to force microsoft account for local login, well the last version of windows before that will be the last one I Ever use.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    I want to be connected, but I want to be in manual control of everything that connects at all times with nothing ever going on behind my back.
    [/QUOTE]
    I wouldn’t have it any other way. I sometimes feel like playing whack a mole with all the crap nowadays. onedrive, ms account, firefox account, google account, it all wants to be connected, when I want my computer my car, my phone, my everything to be separate universes. Unless I want to transfer one file between the two and nothing else.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    My S90 has a screen based instrument cluster behind the steering wheel. I thought I would hate it, but it hasn’t wound up bothering me much. At this point I am mostly indifferent. (If it ever broke and I had to pay a ton of money to replace it, that would instantly be a different story though)
    [/QUOTE]
    My problem with that is if it fails you loose all instruments. So you better hope it doesn’t. I want dedicated gauges for everything. this would not necessarily be a deal breaker, just a preference.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    Another thing I really prefer about older cars is having phyical buttons for everything I can reach out and touch without taking my eyes off the road. Putting a touch screen in a car was the dumbest thing I ever heard of.
    [/QUOTE]
    My radio / entertainment system has a touch screen and I couldn’t agree more. You are forced to take off your eyes from the road to do anything. Whoever decided to move essential functions in a car to a touch screen should be dangled from the roof of a tall building. This is a case where the NTSB needs to step in and ban that shit.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45119, member: 203″]
    If we could have a complete ban on any and all data collection, with severe financiual consequences for the violators that are actually enforced (not like that weaksauce GDPR in Europe) I would maybe change my mind about all of this, but I am not holding my breath. There are too many of these god awful silicon valley ****holes whose entire business model depends on it, and they won’t let it go without a political fight to the death.

    So it seems we are stuck with this big brother nonsense.
    [/QUOTE]
    I don’t mind some data collection because it can be a great tool for improving products by monitoring user preferences and behaviours. But it all should be strictly opt-in. I decide what I want to share, and when. I view data collection as if I was filling in an anonymous survey.

  23. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45136, member: 1298″]
    I don’t trust the cloud either. I just want my devices to connect to each other without a 3rd party intermediary. It’s such a huge convenience
    [/QUOTE]
    I agree with you here. I could utterly live without an entertainment/navigation system in a car, and would be happy if it just had a dock for me to (safely) use my phone for those things.

    I hate the touchscreen in a car. At night it’s too bright and distracts me, and in my wife’s ford you can turn it “off” only if you dig through about 6 levels of submenus — which doesn’t really turn off the screen, it just sets it to black and the backlight still bleeds through some. I hated that I had to turn in my ’11 F-150 work truck, which still had all the physical buttons and dials for everything, for one with a stupid 5″ LCD screen. It isn’t touch, which is nice, and it isn’t big enough to be terribly distracting, but it just has four ambiguous buttons to the side that change depending on what the screen displays.

  24. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45136, member: 1298″]
    The cars on the onramp does not have the right of way in Europe, IDK where you got that information. It’s another thing that there are some polite drivers in europe who will let you merge. But if nobody is willing to give you room it doesn’t matter how fast your car is.
    [/QUOTE]

    Well, I can’t speak for eastern Europe as I have never driven there, but that was definitely the law in Sweden when I lived there for 16 years, and as I recall that is the case in Germany and in the UK as well. That travelers already on the highway are required to move over to let drivers merging from an onramp in, if traffic conditions allow doing so safely.

    [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 45136, member: 1298″]
    That’s exactly the same here, and worse you can’t even leave a safe following distance in front of you because there’ll always be some wiseguy who then overtakes you on the right to go into the safety gap you leave in front of you.
    [/QUOTE]

    Again, that must be a Eastern European thing. Almost all of my European driving experience has been in Scandinavia, but compared to driving there, the U.S. seemed highly disorderly, irresponsible and lawless. Swedes are generally habitual speeders (but no more than 30km/h over the limit as that at least used to be the cutoff for automatic license suspension) but everything else they generally do by the book. 2-3 second following distance, pass on the left and then immediately move back over to the right, never ever never pass on the right, always use turning signals, etc. etc.

    But then again, Scandinavians are generally known for their orderliness, so maybe that shouldn’t be a surprise.

    My recollection of driving in Germany 25 years ago was similar.

    Southern Europe was worse (I never drove there but was a passenger) but not as bad as the U.S.

    Brazil is even worse than the U.S. Any driving there is a white knuckle experience.

    Judging from dashcam videos I have seen from Russia, it sounds like maybe eastern Europe is along the lines of what it is like in Brazil.

    I have never seen anything as bad in person as the videos I have seen from India and China though. If I had to go there, I’d probably try to avoid roads in general as much as possible. It looks absolutely horrifying.

  25. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45172, member: 203″]
    Well, I can’t speak for eastern Europe as I have never driven there, but that was definitely the law in Sweden when I lived there for 16 years, and as I recall that is the case in Germany and in the UK as well. That travelers already on the highway are required to move over to let drivers merging from an onramp in, if traffic conditions allow doing so safely.
    [/QUOTE]
    I do it too every time the left lane is clear, but I’ve never heard it being a rule, it is a courtesy. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who will not move over, even if there is nobody else in sight. I’ve never been to sweden, but almost everywhere mainland europe between france and turkey,
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45172, member: 203″]
    Again, that must be a Eastern European thing. Almost all of my European driving experience has been in Scandinavia, but compared to driving there, the U.S. seemed highly disorderly, irresponsible and lawless. Swedes are generally habitual speeders (but no more than 30km/h over the limit as that at least used to be the cutoff for automatic license suspension) but everything else they generally do by the book. 2-3 second following distance, pass on the left and then immediately move back over to the right, never ever never pass on the right, always use turning signals, etc. etc.
    [/QUOTE]
    There is no clear difference between eastern europe and say germany. Now Turkey is entirely another thing. It seems like pure chaos. more like the far east than europe.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45172, member: 203″]
    But then again, Scandinavians are generally known for their orderliness, so maybe that shouldn’t be a surprise.
    [/QUOTE]
    It’s not that everybody is disorderly here, the majority does the right thing, but there is always that one guy who sees everyone else following the rules as their opportunity.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45172, member: 203″]

    Southern Europe was worse (I never drove there but was a passenger) but not as bad as the U.S.
    [/QUOTE]
    Which part? Greece, Italy, Spain? Italy is pretty weird, half the people seem to be asleep behind the wheel, while the other half going 2 times the speed limit.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45172, member: 203″]
    Judging from dashcam videos I have seen from Russia, it sounds like maybe eastern Europe is along the lines of what it is like in Brazil.
    [/QUOTE]
    Russia is huge, and the dashcam videos can be from many places. Besides the dashcam videos on youtube are a compilation of bad examples you can’t judge driving standards by that.
    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45172, member: 203″]
    I have never seen anything as bad in person as the videos I have seen from India and China though. If I had to go there, I’d probably try to avoid roads in general as much as possible. It looks absolutely horrifying.
    [/QUOTE]
    I’ve been to Vietnam, people there haven’t even mastered basic controls of cars. Granted cars have a huge tax there so very few people can afford them, but they definitely can’t drive. The habit seems to be to ignore the throttle just use the clutch and put the car in a higher gear. So they’d always be at idle throttle and never go above 30kph.

  26. Don’t a lot of these evs have software that phones home? Any mics on board? Cameras of interior? Just wondering how much more data is being collected about us and going to countries we prefer would not have that data. (Volvo/Polestar = China)

  27. [QUOTE=”Nanobot, post: 45210, member: 73″]
    Don’t a lot of these evs have software that phones home? Any mics on board? Cameras of interior? Just wondering how much more data is being collected about us and going to countries we prefer would not have that data. (Volvo/Polestar = China)
    [/QUOTE]

    Supposedly Volvo is still entirely designed in Sweden, with the company maintained as an independent subsidiary, but the truth is you never know what deals are going on in the background. There was some news a while back that Geely was pushing to merge Volvo into the company and keep it just as a brand, but there was a lot of protest at the time, and it has been silent since then.

    There were also rumors of a proposed management buyout to bring Volvo independent, but that has been quiet for a while as well.

    Who knows with these things.

  28. Can you imagine the shit storm if one of these billion dollar companies started their legal teams on investigation the US government for political over reach and enforcing rules and laws previously deemed unconstitutional? Someone with the financial power to stand tow to toe with the federal government on legal issues and battles. Would be interesting to see.

  29. [QUOTE=”Grimlakin, post: 45220, member: 215″]
    Can you imagine the **** storm if one of these billion dollar companies started their legal teams on investigation the US government for political over reach and enforcing rules and laws previously deemed unconstitutional? Someone with the financial power to stand tow to toe with the federal government on legal issues and battles. Would be interesting to see.
    [/QUOTE]

    Hmm.

    Operating a motor vehicle has a long precedent of being a privilege, not a right, so state and federal governments have pretty firm ground to stand on when it comes to regulating it and putting in place conditions for doing so (requiring a license, wearing a seat belt/helmet, obeying speed limits and other traffic laws etc.)

    It’s a very different case than – say – firearms or something like that, where the 2nd amendment has been interpreted to define a right.

    I don’t think anyone challenging these automotive safety laws has much of a case, honestly. That and the interstate commerce clause gives congress pretty wide powers to regulate products sold across state lines, which most definitely includes cars.

  30. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45222, member: 203″]
    Operating a motor vehicle has a long precedent of being a privilege, not a right, so state and federal governments have pretty firm ground to stand on when it comes to regulating it and putting in place conditions for doing so (requiring a license, wearing a seat belt/helmet, obeying speed limits and other traffic laws etc.)
    [/QUOTE]
    Yup. It’s not the driving in and of itself that’s a privilege, it’s [I]driving on public roads.[/I]

    If you want to drive on government provided roads, you play by government rules.

    You are perfectly entitled to drive on private land in any manner you chose, with as many or little safety features as you want.

  31. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 45222, member: 203″]
    Hmm.

    Operating a motor vehicle has a long precedent of being a privilege, not a right, so state and federal governments have pretty firm ground to stand on when it comes to regulating it and putting in place conditions for doing so (requiring a license, wearing a seat belt/helmet, obeying speed limits and other traffic laws etc.)

    It’s a very different case than – say – firearms or something like that, where the 2nd amendment has been interpreted to define a right.

    I don’t think anyone challenging these automotive safety laws has much of a case, honestly. That and the interstate commerce clause gives congress pretty wide powers to regulate products sold across state lines, which most definitely includes cars.
    [/QUOTE]

    Oh sorry I wasn’t meaning vehicle laws in specific. I was meaning just literally everything. Go on a hunt for any laws that should be un constitutional and start opening cases to get them cleaned up.

    It would be great for the average citizen and hell on earth for the federal and state courts.

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