Image: Tesla

Tesla CEO Elon Musk is an executive with an obvious penchant for turning heads with exciting or wild forecasts. The latest stems from a recent meeting at Tesla, in which Musk told employees that he wanted the company to release a $25,000 electric car in 2023.

That’s an incredibly attractive price point. Tesla’s Model 3, Model Y, and Model 3 start at $89,990, $53,990, and $39,990, respectively.

According to early sketches released by Tesla last year, the new $25,000 electric car might take the form of a small electric hatchback. The car is also expected to be called the Model 2.

What’s really interesting is that the Model 2 may not even come with a steering wheel, or pedals. This is thanks to the advances that Tesla has made with artificial intelligence and self-driving technologies.

“Do we want to have this car come with a steering wheel and pedals?” Musk reportedly asked his employees, implying that full autonomy will be viable in just a few years. Tesla has been floating the idea of a vehicle without a steering wheel and pedals since 2019.

Image: Tesla

Tesla is currently trying to release its Full Self-Driving Beta software to its wider fleet in the US by the end of the month.

Once the software, which still requires driver attention, is out, Tesla will improve it using data from the fleet and try to make it several times safer than human drivers in order to achieve regulatory approval to use it as a true full self-driving system.

Source: Electrek

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27 Comments

  1. LOL, the snakeoil price is going up again.

    Tesla is nowhere near complete autonomy, I’d not trust their software to drive a lawnmower, especially with the amount of sensors that you can fit in $25.000 in addition to the car’s cost.

    The only company, waymo that offers truly driverless service has probably tens of thousands if not hundreds of thosuands worth of sensors on their cars and a team of remote drivers on standby to step in if one of the cars encounters a situation it cannot solve.

  2. That’s an inc redibly attractive price point. Tesla’s [B]Model 3[/B], Model Y, and Model 3 start at $89,990, $53,990, and $39,990, respectively.

    Should that be S or X?

  3. [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 40786, member: 96″]
    That’s an incredibly attractive price point. Tesla’s Model 3, Model Y, and Model 3 start at $89,990, $53,990, and $39,990, respectively.

    Should that be S or X?
    [/QUOTE]
    That’s exactly the point. Attractive pricepoint, unrealistic features and wishful thinking will carry it on despite of it being vaporware.

  4. . . .”Might Not Come with a Steering Wheel”-LOL! I’m not sure how many people would even notice. I can’t tell if even half the drivers out there are even trying to steer.

  5. Yeah, hard pass on that at any price.

    1.) I like driving. I don’t want self driving tech, even if I could trust it. At least not unless I could have a proper steering wheel when I want it, and fold it away when I don’t want it (like if I want to sleep on a long drive, or if I’ve had a few too many)

    2.) I actually had a reservation on the Model 3. I canceled it when I saw the minimalist interior. I demand a cockpit-like driver-oriented seating position with all the information I could ever want laid out in dials and gages perfectly oriented to the driver, not some lame center-panel screen.

    3.) I even had a reservation for the oiriginal Model S when it first launched in 2011-2012 some time (can’t remember now). I canceled it back then because my financial circumstances changed after my divorce. That original Model S I wouldn’t mind driving, but it is way too expensive. I have no interest at all in the new Model S with the updated interior to match the Model 3.

    I would LOVE to drive an electric car, but:

    a.) If a car isn’t driver-centric with enough gauges and dials around the driver position in a traditional instrument panel to make even the geekiest engineer blush, I don’t want it. A simple user interface isn’t necessarily better. That’s why I don’t own Apple products.

    b.) I really don’t care about self driving tech. I don’t want it in my way, I don’t want to pay for it, and I CERTAINLY don’t want it used as an excuse to dumb down my driver cockpit experience.

    c.) It has to be cheap enough to pay for itself in gas savings at my local electric rates, and must have a minimum of a 250 mile all electric range.

    Man, if I could get a 250 mile battery electric car, which apart from its electric drivetrain were exactly like a 1998 Volvo wagon, with a basic utilitarian look and feel, all physical buttons, no touch screen, no self driving tech and a traditional instrument panel, I’d buy it in a heartbeat.

  6. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 40787, member: 1298″]
    That’s exactly the point. Attractive pricepoint, unrealistic features and wishful thinking will carry it on despite of it being vaporware.
    [/QUOTE]

    It’s not unreasonable for costs to come down over time as economies of scale improve, and continuous improvement leads to greater efficiency in design and production. 2023 seems a little bit early for them to come down THAT much though. It also seems a little bit early for 100% self driving tech to be reliable enough.

  7. I believe that as much as I believe that the Model 3 was going to be $30,000.

    I’m not interested in all these electric cars trying to redefine what a car is. Give me an electric car that looks and functions exactly like my Mustang in and out (without the instrumentation and whatnot needed for ICE) and then we’ll talk.

  8. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40794, member: 203″]
    Man, if I could get a 250 mile battery electric car, which apart from its electric drivetrain were exactly like a 1998 Volvo wagon, with a basic utilitarian look and feel, all physical buttons, no touch screen, no self driving tech and a traditional instrument panel, I’d buy it in a heartbeat.
    [/QUOTE]
    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan/[/URL]

    It’s close. I don’t know that you get away from a touchscreen anymore in any car today. And I don’t know that I’d call it “utilitarian”, but hey, sometimes you just have to make sacrifices, and I would say “settling” for a Porsche is a hard one to make.

    I really want a plug-in hybrid for my next car, but that’s still a couple years away. Dunno what I will end up with though – depends on if the stupid chip shortage hasn’t normalized out by then.

  9. [QUOTE=”Armenius, post: 40796, member: 180″]
    I’m not interested in all these electric cars trying to redefine what a car is. Give me an electric car that looks and functions exactly like my Mustang in and out (without the instrumentation and whatnot needed for ICE) and then we’ll talk.
    [/QUOTE]
    Well, maybe that was a bad example…

    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/[/URL]

    I do think Ford tried to hard to be a Tesla here, and I too would rather it just look like a regular ICE Mustang than trying to chase a Model 3 interior. But… it is an electric Mustang, and it has some performance numbers that don’t look too bad.

  10. [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 40801, member: 96″]
    …and it has some performance numbers that don’t look too bad.
    [/QUOTE]

    You know, I’m not a kid anymore. I don’t even care if the vehicle comes with some sort of “ludicrous mode”. I don’t need that. Just give me enough oomph to pass and merge onto highways with poor short onramps, and I’m fine. 0-60mph in ~6s should more than do it, which should be very achieveable on a budget considering these things don’t need transmissions, and thus have the same amount of torque at any speed.

  11. [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 40801, member: 96″]
    Well, maybe that was a bad example…

    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/[/URL]

    I do think Ford tried to hard to be a Tesla here, and I too would rather it just look like a regular ICE Mustang than trying to chase a Model 3 interior. But… it is an electric Mustang, and it has some performance numbers that don’t look too bad.
    [/QUOTE]
    The Mach-E is actually interesting, but it would be something I’d own in addition to a real Mustang.

  12. I DREAM of autonomous driving. I have seen the videos of the latest software versions with that pair of optimists inside…. All I see is absolutely catastrophic performance for Tesla, and its supposed billions of hours of shadow mode driving time.
    It is a complete disaster. Elons insisting on only visual analysis will screw them. Tesla will never drive at night. Yes sure multiple sensors, ain’t always better if they seemingly contradict… This is were the AI bs should come in obviously. The algorithms should make either a decision between the two or combine the two and make an assumption don’t know, something like that… Visual sensor says to stationary giant column ‘ whaaa? ‘ What does radar say? What does lidar say? What does all three say about the giant truck you are running into visually because visual is just a box of rocks right now. Things like this.
    I do have a ‘reservation’ of the Cybertruck with autonomous…. I ain’t holding my breath.
    Also 25k will never be achieved… Its getting hardder and harder for any car on inflation alone.

  13. 25 grand? Haha okay sure. We’ll see.

    I’m still real iffy on autonomous driving. As a driving enthusiast myself, I can’t see myself letting software take the driving experience away from me. I already can’t stand how drive-by-wire further removes the driver from the driving experience (such as the lack of feedback in what the front wheels are doing on the road surface when using electric steering). I think I’m also too paranoid to sleep in a car that’s driving itself. I’m pretty dang sure the ONLY autonomous car I trust is the Knight Industries Two Thousand.

    I also do not care for electric vehicles. Yeah yeah, I know, they have zero emissions and instantaneous torque delivery and whatnot, but I dunno, they seem soul-less to me. If ICE vehicles are the organic beings, electric cars are the robots. I enjoy the experience of starting up an ICE, feeling the vibrations from the engine, hearing the engine/exhaust note, and shifting gears. I don’t like the eerie silence of electric vehicles. They especially feel like appliances, like using a toaster or a microwave. No matter how fast or powerful they get, an element of “life” is missing from them.

    I can NOT stand touch-screens in vehicles. I already don’t like them in general (although I guess they are fine for smartphones). I need physical knobs/dials/switches, all of which can be used without taking your eyes off the road after you’ve gotten familiar with the vehicle and controls layout. With touch-screens you need to see what you are pressing, and they tend to be slower in terms of activation and responsiveness. Modern cars also love to bury features inside menus. Using the window locks in a Tesla Model S Plaid is a 4-step process in the menus, rather than a physical button on the door you can just instantly press and activate.

    [QUOTE=”Peter_Brosdahl, post: 40788, member: 87″]
    I can’t tell if even half the drivers out there are even trying to steer.
    [/QUOTE]
    The problem is, people don’t drive with purpose. They are too focused either on just going from point A to point B, or their music, or doing their make-up/shaving, or eating, or talking on the phone, or whatever the f*ck else. They aren’t focused on the act of driving, on listening to and feeling what the vehicle is doing, on the act of controlling a multi-thousand-pound vehicle that is capable of traveling at very high speeds (and by that I mean even just highway speeds), on what is going on around them out there on the roads. To most people, cars are just an appliance for travel. Yeah we use vehicles for traveling from point A to point B, but I need to be engaged with the vehicle [I]between[/I] A and B. When I am driving, I am all about the driving. I don’t get distracted with other crap. My mind focuses just on what it takes to operate the vehicle. If more people paid attention when driving, and were more actively engaged in controlling the vehicles they are driving, we’d need autonomous driving way the f*ck less. I think autonomous vehicles will just give people even more excuse to pay less attention on the roads.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40794, member: 203″]
    I like driving. I don’t want self driving tech, even if I could trust it.
    [/QUOTE]
    I feel yah there dawg.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40794, member: 203″]
    If a car isn’t driver-centric with enough gauges and dials around the driver position in a traditional instrument panel to make even the geekiest engineer blush, I don’t want it. A simple user interface isn’t necessarily better. That’s why I don’t own Apple products.
    [/QUOTE]
    Haha yupz! Completely agree.

    [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40794, member: 203″]
    I really don’t care about self driving tech. I don’t want it in my way, I don’t want to pay for it, and I CERTAINLY don’t want it used as an excuse to dumb down my driver cockpit experience.
    [/QUOTE]
    Amen.

    [QUOTE=”Armenius, post: 40796, member: 180″]
    I’m not interested in all these electric cars trying to redefine what a car is.
    [/QUOTE]
    I know, what the f*ck is up with that sh1t? Sheesh.

    [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 40801, member: 96″]
    Well, maybe that was a bad example…

    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/[/URL]

    I do think Ford tried to hard to be a Tesla here, and I too would rather it just look like a regular ICE Mustang than trying to chase a Model 3 interior. But… it is an electric Mustang, and it has some performance numbers that don’t look too bad.
    [/QUOTE]
    Please don’t call that hideous abomination a Mustang. It really should have had its own name. Ford should NOT have used Mustang branding with that sh1t.

  14. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40795, member: 203″]
    It’s not unreasonable for costs to come down over time as economies of scale improve, and continuous improvement leads to greater efficiency in design and production. 2023 seems a little bit early for them to come down THAT much though. It also seems a little bit early for 100% self driving tech to be reliable enough.
    [/QUOTE]
    A bit early? Completely unthinkable. You’d need prices to come down by magnitudes to be able to fit tech in a car capable of full self driving in that price range. You can barely get a regular gas powered mid size car for that money.

    Heck it takes more than two years to get any car model from the drawing board to market. So they’d need to have a working prototype now to have a chance of a 2023 debut.

    As for 100% reliable self driving, you can get close, you can make self driving that will handle 99.99% of situations well, but that still leaves that 1 in 10.000 case where it will do the “wrong thing at the worst possible time” which is a quote from tesla’s autopilot manual.

    This announcement is nothing but a ploy to keep the internet buzz. And the “tech” sites will give them free marketing.

  15. If it doesn’t come with a steering wheel can I hook up my logitech wheel and drive with that? 😉

    You know what.. that might actually be something lol. Imagine being able to hook up your Sim wheel and pedals to a car to use as your interface.

  16. [QUOTE=”DrezKill, post: 40817, member: 230″]
    I also do not care for electric vehicles. Yeah yeah, I know, they have zero emissions and instantaneous torque delivery and whatnot, but I dunno, they seem soul-less to me. If ICE vehicles are the organic beings, electric cars are the robots. I enjoy the experience of starting up an ICE, feeling the vibrations from the engine, hearing the engine/exhaust note, and shifting gears. I don’t like the eerie silence of electric vehicles. They especially feel like appliances, like using a toaster or a microwave. No matter how fast or powerful they get, an element of “life” is missing from them.
    [/QUOTE]

    You make a good comparison.

    It made me realize. Electric cars probably are the future, but I doubt ICE will die entirely.

    There are always those enthuisiats that love doing it the old way. Carburators haven’t died out entirely, but you would be hard pressed to find a new car with one equipped. Same thing is going for manual transmissions. ICE engines will go along in that same vein – it may be the only way to get them in 20 years would be as crate engines or in “classic” cars.

  17. It’s an interesting discussion. I was sitting here asking myself. What ever happened to the 100 mpg engines we were told about in the late 90’s? Did they go the way of the dodo? Or does the energy sector itself not want this for some reason?

  18. [QUOTE=”Grimlakin, post: 40828, member: 215″]
    It’s an interesting discussion. I was sitting here asking myself. What ever happened to the 100 mpg engines we were told about in the late 90’s? Did they go the way of the dodo? Or does the energy sector itself not want this for some reason?
    [/QUOTE]
    I think 100mpg, okay thats too much, but very high mpg is very achievable… Its just that it would be a very light, and very spartan vehicle, no one would want, let alone with massive suvs around. Something like this, could be done, but it would have to be something we choose to do as a society, and have a great deal of changes to I think many things. These things are doable, but there’s sacrifice involved and that rarely happens by choice (has it ever?)

  19. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 40819, member: 1298″]
    A bit early? Completely unthinkable. You’d need prices to come down by magnitudes to be able to fit tech in a car capable of full self driving in that price range. You can barely get a regular gas powered mid size car for that money.

    Heck it takes more than two years to get any car model from the drawing board to market. So they’d need to have a working prototype now to have a chance of a 2023 debut.

    As for 100% reliable self driving, you can get close, you can make self driving that will handle 99.99% of situations well, but that still leaves that 1 in 10.000 case where it will do the “wrong thing at the worst possible time” which is a quote from tesla’s autopilot manual.

    This announcement is nothing but a ploy to keep the internet buzz. And the “tech” sites will give them free marketing.
    [/QUOTE]

    What people forget in this conversation is that a modern internal combustion engine is an incredibly complex piece of machinery with a large quantity of moving parts with very tight tolerances and difficult manufacturing processes. So is a transmission.

    By contrast an electric motor is dead simple, cheap and easy to manufacture.

    If years of continuous improvement and economies of scale could bring internal combustion engines and transmissions to where they are today, doing so for electric motor / battery combos should be simple by comparison.

    Right now it is the battery that is driving most of the cost. I’m sure that will come down over time. 2023 just seems too soon.

  20. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40836, member: 203″]
    What people forget in this conversation is that a modern internal combustion engine is an incredibly complex piece of machinery with a large quantity of moving parts with very tight tolerances and difficult manufacturing processes. So is a transmission.
    By contrast an electric motor is dead simple, cheap and easy to manufacture.
    [/QUOTE]
    Now you are just making excuses. Actually manufacturing large scale electric motors that run at 20-30.000rpm is not really that cheap. And they include powerful permanent magnets, that are you guessed made from rare earth raw materials. But this is besides the point anyway.

    Even the cheapest tesla is what $40.000 now? So unless musk can bring the price of that down to zero, this is not happening. Even $25.000 is a tight budget for the sensors needed for reliable and versatile self driving, that is not the joke that is autopilot.

    [QUOTE]If years of continuous improvement and economies of scale could bring internal combustion engines and transmissions to where they are today, doing so for electric motor / battery combos should be simple by comparison.[/QUOTE]
    Except electric motors has been around as long as internal combustion engines, the technology is pretty mature, there are no miracolus shortcuts to make them suddenly 10 times cheaper. Only in Musk fans heads.

    [QUOTE]
    Right now it is the battery that is driving most of the cost. I’m sure that will come down over time. 2023 just seems too soon.
    [/QUOTE]
    Various sharlatans have been touting revolutionary new batteries for decades, yet nothing came of it, because physics cannot be cheated, only gullible people believe in miracles.

  21. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40836, member: 203″]
    Right now it is the battery that is driving most of the cost. I’m sure that will come down over time. 2023 just seems too soon.
    [/QUOTE]
    Nah, you won’t see prices appreciably lower.

    By the time the energy storage portion starts to drop in price, other items, such as safety and amenities will go up in price to keep the net cost the same, or even higher.

    The only thing that will bring down the cost of care ownership, in my opinion, will be something like ridesharing. Programs where you don’t own a car, you own a subscription than let’s you use a fleet car when you need to.

  22. [QUOTE=”Brian_B, post: 40845, member: 96″]
    The only thing that will bring down the cost of care ownership, in my opinion, will be something like ridesharing. Programs where you don’t own a car, you own a subscription than let’s you use a fleet car when you need to.
    [/QUOTE]

    That will go over like a lead balloon. At least in the U.S.

  23. Correct price point, not sure about everything else.

    I’m hoping the new VW and other small electrics are ok and not ungodly expensive.

  24. [QUOTE=”MadMummy76, post: 40838, member: 1298″]

    Various sharlatans have been touting revolutionary new batteries for decades, yet nothing came of it, because physics cannot be cheated, only gullible people believe in miracles.
    [/QUOTE]
    There are interesting things in better battery tech that are still possible and have been demonstrated in a lab. For example, batteries that age dramatically slower than existing batteries, or solid state batteries that charge dramatically faster (1/10th the time of current lithium ion) than existing tech. I don’t think advancements like that are miracles.

  25. [QUOTE=”Endgame, post: 40894, member: 1041″]
    There are interesting things in better battery tech that are still possible and have been demonstrated in a lab. For example, batteries that age dramatically slower than existing batteries, or solid state batteries that charge dramatically faster (1/10th the time of current lithium ion) than existing tech. I don’t think advancements like that are miracles.
    [/QUOTE]

    It’s all down to the expectations people have.

    The thing is, we see reports of these scientific papers of promising new technology and think “cool, can’t wait to get my hands on that”, but what people don’t realize is how ridiculously long it takes to actually go from “science has shown its possible” to an actual developed product that is reliable, manufacturable etc. The science bit is usually the comparatively easy part. Developing a product is really expensive, takes time and is challenging.

    As an example, I remember talking to a friend of mine when I was 13 in 1993 about this awesome new technology that is coming down the pike. It’s going to be like RAM, but non-volatile, so it can actually store data without power. It is absolutely going to revolutionize storage and make it so much faster. It has this strange name though, “Flash RAM”.

    16 to 17 years later I was able to buy my first SSD.

    Battery tech improvements are coming. You just have to be patient.

    Science studies may prove something is possible, but most of these papers go nowhere, as the concept is something that could never work outside of the controlled settings in a lab. In other cases, the studies can’t be replicated (and no one wants to fund or conduct replication studies anymore, because all the glory is in the first discovery)

    Maybe 10% of published papers are actually something that is actionable as a product. Now you have to convince someone to actually spend the time and money to develop it. Not all of them will get picked up. Of those that do, a good chunk will never make it to market, either because they wind up being too expensive, or they are just not reliable enough in the real world, etc. etc. The projects get shut down, shelved and the project never launches. In some cases the tech may even still be useful, but now it is tied up in patents and red tape and can’t be developed by someone else, at least not easily.

    A few filter through to wind up being real products, 20 years and millions (or in some cases billions) of dollars of investment in development and manufacturing work later.

    Part of this is the news media’s fault. Thy report on science topics they don’t understand, and make it seem like these things will be viable products right around the corner, when most never will be.

  26. [QUOTE=”Zarathustra, post: 40794, member: 203″]
    I would LOVE to drive an electric car, but:

    a.) If a car isn’t driver-centric with enough gauges and dials around the driver position in a traditional instrument panel to make even the geekiest engineer blush, I don’t want it. A simple user interface isn’t necessarily better. That’s why I don’t own Apple products.

    b.) I really don’t care about self driving tech. I don’t want it in my way, I don’t want to pay for it, and I CERTAINLY don’t want it used as an excuse to dumb down my driver cockpit experience.
    [/QUOTE]
    Not to derail the thread, but check out this nonsense: [URL]https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37408150/audi-grandsphere-ev-concept-revealed[/URL]
    “Facing the driver and front passenger is a large, flat dashboard that’s devoid of buttons and lacks the traditional touchscreen display. Instead, the car’s infotainment is projected onto the dashboard, and a camera tracks the driver’s eyes and flicks through menus and selections based on eye movement. Each of the car’s four doors features physical buttons for the climate-control system, but those can also be adjusted based on hand gestures.”

    “Autonomous driving is the Grandsphere concept’s biggest flex, though, and in autonomous mode, there’s no steering wheel in sight. For instances when autonomous driving is not available—such as when exiting a highway into city traffic—a steering wheel and gauge cluster deploy from behind the flat dashboard so the driver can take control.”

    Just… what the actual f*ck. I hope this thing doesn’t make it to production. How fast does that steering wheel deploy anyways?

  27. Ah, I my dream car… Heheh, I don’t like driving, and pretty much suck at it. Lucky I married to the opposite.

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